Col 3:13: logic and punctuation

hmw3 commented

2020-07-30 15:59:03 +00:00

OGNT has no punctuation marked, so I'm citing other GNTs.

UBS3,:
12 Ἐνδύσασθε οὖν ὡς ἐκλεκτοὶ τοῦ θεοῦ, ἅγιοι καὶ ἠγαπημένοι, σπλάγχνα οἰκτιρμοῦ, χρηστότητα, ταπεινοφροσύνην, πραΰτητα, μακροθυμίαν, 13 ἀνεχόμενοι ἀλλήλων καὶ χαριζόμενοι ἑαυτοῖς ἐάν τις πρός τινα ἔχῃ μομφήν· καθὼς καὶ ὁ κύριος ἐχαρίσατο ὑμῖν, οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς· 14 ἐπὶ πᾶσιν

UB4; N27:
12 Ἐνδύσασθε οὖν, ὡς ἐκλεκτοὶ τοῦ θεοῦ ἅγιοι καὶ ἠγαπημένοι, σπλάγχνα οἰκτιρμοῦ χρηστότητα ταπεινοφροσύνην πραΰτητα μακροθυμίαν, 13 ἀνεχόμενοι ἀλλήλων καὶ χαριζόμενοι ἑαυτοῖς ἐάν τις πρός τινα ἔχῃ μομφήν· καθὼς καὶ ὁ κύριος ἐχαρίσατο ὑμῖν, οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς· 14 ἐπὶ πᾶσιν

UBS 5 (Logos - I'm guessing the missing punctuation at the end of v.13 is a typo, cp. the others):
12 Ἐνδύσασθε οὖν, ὡς ἐκλεκτοὶ τοῦ θεοῦ ἅγιοι καὶ ἠγαπημένοι, σπλάγχνα οἰκτιρμοῦ χρηστότητα ταπεινοφροσύνην πραΰτητα μακροθυμίαν, 13 ἀνεχόμενοι ἀλλήλων καὶ χαριζόμενοι ἑαυτοῖς ἐάν τις πρός τινα ἔχῃ μομφήν· καθὼς καὶ ὁ κύριος ἐχαρίσατο ὑμῖν, οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς 14 ἐπὶ πᾶσιν

I'm interested in the break in the middle of verse 13, μομφήν· καθὼς. The ULB is currently:

Bear with one another. Be gracious to each other. If someone has a complaint against someone else, forgive in the same way that the Lord has forgiven you.

It seems to me that
ἀνεχόμενοι ἀλλήλων καὶ χαριζόμενοι ἑαυτοῖς ἐάν τις πρός τινα ἔχῃ μομφήν
goes with v. 12, so I suggest, mutatis mutandis :-) ,
\v 12 ... put on a heart of mercy, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience, \v 13 bearing with one another and being gracious to each other if someone has a complaint against someone else. Just as the Lord has forgiven y'all, y'all should do the same.
or
... patience. \v 13 Y'all bear with one another and be gracious to each other if ...

OGNT has no punctuation marked, so I'm citing other GNTs. UBS3,: 12 Ἐνδύσασθε **οὖν ὡς** ἐκλεκτοὶ τοῦ **θεοῦ, ἅγιοι** καὶ ἠγαπημένοι, σπλάγχνα **οἰκτιρμοῦ, χρηστότητα, ταπεινοφροσύνην, πραΰτητα, μακροθυμίαν,** 13 ἀνεχόμενοι ἀλλήλων καὶ χαριζόμενοι ἑαυτοῖς ἐάν τις πρός τινα ἔχῃ **μομφήν· καθὼς** καὶ ὁ κύριος ἐχαρίσατο ὑμῖν, οὕτως καὶ **ὑμεῖς· 14** ἐπὶ πᾶσιν UB4; N27: 12 Ἐνδύσασθε **οὖν, ὡς** ἐκλεκτοὶ τοῦ **θεοῦ ἅγιοι** καὶ ἠγαπημένοι, σπλάγχνα **οἰκτιρμοῦ χρηστότητα ταπεινοφροσύνην πραΰτητα μακροθυμίαν,** 13 ἀνεχόμενοι ἀλλήλων καὶ χαριζόμενοι ἑαυτοῖς ἐάν τις πρός τινα ἔχῃ **μομφήν· καθὼς** καὶ ὁ κύριος ἐχαρίσατο ὑμῖν, οὕτως καὶ **ὑμεῖς· 14** ἐπὶ πᾶσιν UBS 5 (Logos - I'm guessing the missing punctuation at the end of v.13 is a typo, cp. the others): 12 Ἐνδύσασθε **οὖν, ὡς** ἐκλεκτοὶ τοῦ θεοῦ ἅγιοι καὶ ἠγαπημένοι, σπλάγχνα **οἰκτιρμοῦ χρηστότητα ταπεινοφροσύνην πραΰτητα μακροθυμίαν,** 13 ἀνεχόμενοι ἀλλήλων καὶ χαριζόμενοι ἑαυτοῖς ἐάν τις πρός τινα ἔχῃ **μομφήν· καθὼς** καὶ ὁ κύριος ἐχαρίσατο ὑμῖν, οὕτως καὶ **ὑμεῖς 14** ἐπὶ πᾶσιν I'm interested in the break in the middle of verse 13, μομφήν· καθὼς. The ULB is currently: Bear with one another. Be gracious to each other. If someone has a complaint against someone else, forgive in the same way that the Lord has forgiven you. It seems to me that ἀνεχόμενοι ἀλλήλων καὶ χαριζόμενοι ἑαυτοῖς ἐάν τις πρός τινα ἔχῃ μομφήν goes with v. 12, so I suggest, mutatis mutandis :-) , \v 12 ... put on a heart of mercy, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience, \v 13 bearing with one another and being gracious to each other if someone has a complaint against someone else. Just as the Lord has forgiven y'all, y'all should do the same. or ... patience. \v 13 Y'all bear with one another and be gracious to each other if ...

JohnH commented

2020-07-31 14:35:33 +00:00

Owner

Most translations have the punctuation as Henry has suggested (NIV, ESV, NASB, HCSB). Looks like the only notable translation that is punctuated differently is KJV, but that was changed in the NKJV to match NIV et al.

I agree with Henry's suggestion.

Out of curiosity, since Koine Greek does not have punctuation, is there something in the grammar that definitely shows that there is definitely a break before καθὼς.

Most translations have the punctuation as Henry has suggested (NIV, ESV, NASB, HCSB). Looks like the only notable translation that is punctuated differently is KJV, but that was changed in the NKJV to match NIV et al. I agree with Henry's suggestion. Out of curiosity, since Koine Greek does not have punctuation, is there something in the grammar that definitely shows that there is definitely a break before καθὼς.

hmw3 commented

2020-07-31 14:56:10 +00:00

Author

I'm guessing that punctuation was invented because of situations like this. I can just see an out-loud reader getting into v. 14 and saying, "Wait. What?" and going back to the end of the list of accusatives in v. 12. ἐπὶ πᾶσιν δὲ τούτοις τὴν ἀγάπην (an accusative that goes with the list) in v. 14 clearly refers back to v. 12, so 13 seems to be a sort of parenthesis. ἀνεχόμενοι ... μομφήν seems to expand on μακροθυμίαν (or maybe Ἐνδύσασθε), and καθὼς ... ὑμεῖς seems to stand well by itself.

It'll be fun to meet the reader in Colossae in glory and find out how close my guess is.

I'm guessing that punctuation was invented because of situations like this. I can just see an out-loud reader getting into v. 14 and saying, "Wait. What?" and going back to the end of the list of accusatives in v. 12. ἐπὶ πᾶσιν δὲ τούτοις τὴν ἀγάπην (an accusative that goes with the list) in v. 14 clearly refers back to v. 12, so 13 seems to be a sort of parenthesis. ἀνεχόμενοι ... μομφήν seems to expand on μακροθυμίαν (or maybe Ἐνδύσασθε), and καθὼς ... ὑμεῖς seems to stand well by itself. It'll be fun to meet the reader in Colossae in glory and find out how close my guess is.

SusanQuigley commented

2020-07-31 19:39:28 +00:00

Owner

I agree with Henry's suggestion about connecting the if-clause to the clause before it.
I still like the idea of starting v13 as a new sentence.
I'm fine with translating οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς as 'you should do the same.'

\v 12 Therefore, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, put on a heart of mercy, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience.
\v 13 Bear with one another and be gracious to each other if someone has a complaint against someone else. Just as the Lord has forgiven you, you should do the same.

I don't know why the ULB has "be gracious to each other" rather than "forgive each other" as other versions do. It's the same verb as what the Lord does in the last sentence: χαρίζω G5483.

* I agree with Henry's suggestion about connecting the if-clause to the clause before it. * I still like the idea of starting v13 as a new sentence. * I'm fine with translating οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς as 'you should do the same.' \v 12 Therefore, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, put on a heart of mercy, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. \v 13 Bear with one another **and be gracious to each other if** someone has a complaint against someone else. **Just as the Lord has forgiven you, you should do the same.** I don't know why the ULB has "be gracious to each other" rather than "forgive each other" as other versions do. It's the same verb as what the Lord does in the last sentence: χαρίζω G5483.

SusanQuigley closed this issue

2020-07-31 19:39:29 +00:00

SusanQuigley added the

Henry

John

Tom

labels 2020-07-31 19:39:49 +00:00

Col 3:13: logic and punctuation #527